Football, Podcast

Buckeye Weekly: Michigan Sign-Stealing Scandal Goes National

In this episode of the Buckeye Weekly Podcast, Tom Orr and Tony Gerdeman discuss the latest breaking news regarding the sign-stealing scandal involving Michigan football that has taken over the college football world.

The fellas discuss how this has now branched out beyond the Big Ten and involves other top programs that have confirmed Connor Stalions bought tickets for their games. There is also breaking news during the show about a “Michigan Manifesto” which gets talked about as well.

There is plenty more in this one, including popular arguments for why this is no big deal and why those arguments just don’t cut it.

You can find an automated transcript (unedited) below the video player.

Tony Gerdeman 0:02
Hello everybody welcome to the Buckeye weekly podcast. I am Tony Gerdeman here as always with Tom Orr. Tom how’s it going?

Tom Orr 0:11
Tony you’re not gonna believe what we get to talk about today

Tony Gerdeman 0:16
surprise me

Tom Orr 0:18
Tony. I think we’re gonna be talking about Michigan and their sign stealing spying scandal thing for what feels like about the fifth day in a row but it every day I think okay, well, we’ll get to do like a Wisconsin preview show today. And then something else comes out and there’s there was big news since since last we spoke Tony, there has been big news from our own Marc Givler of Buckeye from Tom weathers from the AP from Pete Thamel from ESPN from Ross elegir, from Yahoo. From various college football message boards at forum from the last, you know, 10 months or so predicting the future. There’s Las Vegas may be getting involved. chigan author John, you bake in as throwing out names of people on the NCAA committees on infractions that might be out to get Jim Harbaugh Tony, there’s some stuff to talk about today.

Tony Gerdeman 1:10
Yeah, and initially, I wanted to I was wondering, is there just a name that we can give to this thing rather than the whole? The whole Michigan sign stealing thing? Is there a gate that we can put on this? I know people are calling a sign gate? That seems pretty rare. Do you do you do something with the name stallions you do? Do you do do like gallop gait? Or do you just stick it with Michigan’s called Michigan gait? Make them own this? I’m thinking time you know how when you’ve got this system where you send people out into the world to go get you stuff. And some summer homes they call that they call those people Smurfs? So my suggestion Smurf gate.

Tom Orr 1:52
Michigan isn’t bad. I really have loved wild stallions with a why in wild lengthy band in a Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure. But yeah, I and we made we I don’t think we’ve hit a winner yet. For sure. There. So we’ll have to we’ll keep workshopping that. Good news. I think we’ll have more future shows in which to workshop that so I don’t think we need necessarily DeLand. And a final answer right here. No. So

Tony Gerdeman 2:21
let’s discuss we’ve got plenty of things to talk about. Marc Givler, as report from Tuesday that Clemson was one of the teams that one of the games that kind of stallions had been purchased a ticket for and was going to go or send somebody out to scout Clemson, I believe at the time was like eight No, so clearly, they were looking like a college football playoff football or possibility. And so that gives you an idea of the the level of advanced scouting because it goes well beyond the big 10. And then Pete Dale comes out and corroborates that and says that there were the last two SEC championship games and other games outside the scope of the big 10 as well. I even saw some dope on the internet saying that mark and Buck I had oh, we’re just trying to get in on families reporting when Mark story came out before families about Clemson. But once it’s bad enough, it’s bad in the big 10 Then when you start to involve other conferences, just Michigan is gonna have to be careful here because now you’re bringing in other entities other than just the NCAA and the big 10.

Tom Orr 3:42
Yeah, you’re you’re inviting a broader group of people to be directly impacted by this. And, you know, if I think that you would be hearing many, many more issues coming from the Athens, Georgia roam of the world if Michigan had beaten Georgia a couple of years ago in the playoffs as it was whatever they did in you know, whatever happened at the SEC championship game that year, did not have any meaningful impact on the onfield results that happened that transpired in the semi final there against the Georgia Bulldogs. But you know, what’s interesting, Tony is the name that you didn’t say I mean, they they were you know, he’s obviously there’s been linked to tickets at many potential College Football Playoff potential opponents. I didn’t see TCU mentioned in there anywhere DID YOU? i That seems that seems strange to me. How did how did that game go?

Tony Gerdeman 4:34
Yeah, well, funnily enough, it did not go well. For Michigan. It seemed like a couple of pick sixes in that one having trouble deciphering the secondaries having trouble deciphering the TCU offense. I don’t want to say it was a matchup game as Ryan day says but it sure seemed like things were a little bit more even there, just based on the score the score. So even throughout that game, you’d have to assume everything else was even as well.

Tom Orr 5:00
Oh, yeah, I just I mean, again, there’s this is not a definitive proof that, you know that it means three touchdown advantage per game or whatever it’s just, boy that’s interesting that that worked out in that way. And you look at the you know, let’s say inconsistency of results of Michigan throughout regular seasons in terms of what they did to Penn State last year what they did against Ohio State last year, and then how they looked against TCU. And it just wasn’t the same team. And at the time, I sort of chalked it up to, you know, maybe maybe Harbaugh was just not, you know, he’s staying a little truth to true to what he likes to do. And if you have enough time to prep against Jim Harbaugh offense, you maybe are at a little bit of an advantage. Maybe that’s true. I don’t know. I mean, there’s there’s I don’t think there’s enough anything there to make any kind of definitive statement, but it sure is an interesting and interesting confluence of events.

Tony Gerdeman 6:00
I do also think it was interesting in Mark’s piece, where he talked about I also wrote about your photos. And the the sign that the picture of the laminated signals were Ohio State told Mark people from sources that Ohio State believed that that those are their plays. So again, as we we’ve talked about in previous shows, they weren’t just drawing those plays up during joining up those diagrams, as they were learning the plays in real time at the game, this is comes from somewhere. And where it doesn’t come from is the the all 22. And the TV tape that so many people or Michigan fans have talked about, well, you can get all of that from the all 22. And you can’t, I had NFL personas guy reached out to me and say like the l 22. Never shows what is going what the coaches are doing pre snap, because it’s taking the whole full and the full field into that’s what that’s where the camera is, you’ll really start seeing the signals and stuff like as things maybe broaden out, or the camera goes up like this is something that is part and of all that alternatives, you’re not gonna get all the information you want there, you’re not gonna get all the information you want from the TV. The only way to get all the information you want is to be there in person. And the greatest Twitter response of all time, Tom, when Kevin noon yesterday, tweets out a shot, a screenshot of all 20 twos. This is what all 22 film looks like. So keep telling me how science can be stolen from all 22. And the response, a heartfelt response. And I’m not even gonna mention the person’s name. The response was because there are 22 angles, not just this one.

Tom Orr 7:56
And when he learns something new every day, don’t you

Tony Gerdeman 8:01
I learned that I still have the ability to laugh my butt off, because that was the single funniest thing I’ve seen in a very long time. And I I hope each day you know how Jim Valvano says you’ll laugh cry every day, you know, get your emotions out. If I can find something that makes me laugh like that every single day, I’ll be a much happier person. And maybe, maybe it’s all it takes is just following this dude on Twitter.

Tom Orr 8:28
Okay, so if just in case you are not in on the joke, the reason it’s called all 22 is because you can see all 22 players who are on the field because there’s 11 on the offense and 11 on the defense. That’s why it’s called all 22 There are not 22 angles, you usually get two angles. One is the sideline angle, looking the traditional TV angle, but much wider as you can see everyone on the field at the same time. The other one comes from behind the endzone. So you get sort of the vertical angle of the team coming directly at you or away from you. So that’s that’s what, that’s what the old 22 is. And yes, I think we have both watched a decent amount of all 22. And no, you are not going to just be able to pull a team’s full set of signals on the off of there. You know, frequently, almost always, I’m gonna say almost always because I don’t want to say always, but almost always. That starts as the guys are on the field and set and, you know, information and you’re not you know, you don’t have this like long break. It’s chopped from play to play. So you don’t have this like long break in the middle where everyone’s signaling you can see everyone’s signals like no, you cannot get them from that. And you don’t have to trust me Tony, you know who you can trust on that? Connor stallions. Because if you could get all of this from the all 22 If you get your all this from the TV tape, Tony, this sentence probably would not exist. ESPN has confirmed that stallions has purchased tickets to more than 35 games at 17 stadiums around the country. He’s usually network of at least three people who are afforded tickets to attend games. Tony if you could get it all from TV, and all 22 legally Why would you have to have this elaborate system where you’re sending people to all games in 35 games at 17 stadiums around the country? That seems pretty self evident to me? Yeah.

Tony Gerdeman 10:14
It’s it, it explains itself. And when you’re doing something like this, you’re doing it for an advantage. And it’s not what the what I’ve seen from Michigan fans saying, you can’t buy your friends tickets to games. I mean, is this wrong? Is this what is when did this become? Is it still America? And the the buying of the ticket, and then maybe there’s a Tennessee game, or I don’t even remember anymore because all these games but he buys a ticket and it’s like, three minutes later, it’s transferred, you know, and I know some people are upset with the going to see they’re buying tickets for 12 of the 13 big 10 venues. And people like, you know, wondering which big 10 team that he didn’t go and scout I think what has happened there. They’re not scouting all 13 Big 10 teams are 12 and 13. They’re scouting Ohio State four times Penn State three times stuff like that. So I wouldn’t expect them to be necessarily scouting. Indiana. Maybe?

Tom Orr 11:21
Well, there was also an I have there has been a good amount of over net ink spilled over this this week. So I cannot tell you exactly where I saw this. But there was reporting. I think it might have been either Rossdale NG Repeat SAML. But I could not tell you for sure that the the 13th of those other stadiums does not have access to the third party. So if you bought it through StubHub, whatever school that is, does not have access to the StubHub data or whatever, for whatever reason, the way their ticketing system is set up. So it’s not that they weren’t purchased for that stadium. It’s just that the school that school doesn’t have access to that data and again, I will apologize that was not just like random dude on Twitter. That was in one of the one of the articles I’ve read from one of the credible national sources on that. I just can’t remember which one it was. But yes, that’s, that’s the explanation there.

Tony Gerdeman 12:15
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Tom Orr 16:02
Well, you have I mean, he’s, he’s got a bunch of transactions on Venmo. That were public transactions until recently which that so the transaction history is going to exist there. That’s something you could get from Venmo. If you as a school were complying, cooperating fully with the NCAA investigation, as teams have claimed that they were going to do it. This is, I think, maybe the single most instructive thing here because this was sort of thrown out there. Nine months ago, there is no internet clout to be gained by doing it. It’s just like, you know, some guy on some board makes a post about this interesting thing that his friend told him. And then months and months and months later, everyone kind of goes, oh, oh, it’s like, this is not a perfect analogy in terms of the people involved in both ends of this. But do you remember when Osama bin Laden got killed and there was that one guy who was like live tweeting it from about Abad? As it was happening? And then it was later like, oh, okay, that kind of person who’s doing it live without any real expectation of like, oh, but this is Osama bin Laden getting clips, that’s, that’s a relatively reliable narrator. In all of this, because you look back now and it’s like, Oh, this guy has successfully predicted the future. So, you know, this is not all you know, 100% gospel but boy, this is not real spin like this is Tennessee didn’t lose a game to Michigan, Tennessee didn’t even play Michigan. There’s no There’s no nothing to spin here. This is just an Oh, an interesting story about a mutual friend. And, you know, if, if Michigan is paying flights, lodging, food and seats behind the team’s bench for him to get video notes, etc, as the quote says directly. That’s, you know, that’s going to be a problem that’s going to be a, you know, that’s going to be something it’s very hard to, very hard to, you know, sort of shove off as as irrelevant. The fact that they are never allowed to talk to Harbaugh directly about it is, you know, are you protecting the head guy? Or is this giving the head guy plausible deniability? Frankly, I think the answer is it probably doesn’t matter because of the rules with the head coaches, you know, being responsible for everything that happens under them, whether it’s someone who reports to them directly or indirectly, that you know, this is this is someone who would fall under Harbaugh’s umbrellas, stallions would this, you know, that kind of stuff, again, let’s see what they’re able to prove in terms of the paper trail here. But this does not seem like a particularly craftily run operation. I mean, the SEC shorts Twitter account had a had a video on it, and it was just basically, you know, you can just go ahead and find it, it’s, I will not do it justice. So you know, how not incredibly clever this whole thing was, and how extremely obvious they made some of this stuff. There was a picture of a guy videotaping at an Oregon game, like videotaping the whole game on one of the boards, you know, again, months and months and months ago. You know, you can you can go back and find this stuff. And it’s just like this is just, you’re starting to see more and more and more corroboration. And between that and the daily drip drip drip from Pete SAML to Ross del injure from Pat 40, has been writing about it a bunch. There’s a bunch of these national guys who keep getting new information and it keeps, it keeps getting bigger. And generally when you get the drip, drip drip, that always kind of you know that the drip drip drip doesn’t generally stop on its own. You know, that’s true with a faucet. That’s too true with a news story here, that is probably not just going to go away and the more information comes out, the more it’s helpful for the NCAA and or the big 10 making a case here.

Tony Gerdeman 19:57
Even as we’re recording this By the time we get it posted, there’s there may be something that is, you know, not necessarily out of date, but there’s new information. And that’s, that’s, that’s the gist the danger of living in a live news era that we live in time where anything can happen on any given day and you wait, it’s like, well, it’s 930 in the morning, I wonder when I’m sure there’ll be something by 10. And it’s like, it’s 230 In the afternoon, I bet. Well, here’s something by four. And it’s almost like clockwork right now with what is going on. I want to mention the time where there’s from the Associated Press, who covers the browns, talking to Dawand Jones, former Buckeye, right tackle about the Michigan sign stealing thing. And he wants to that they suspected that the Wolverines had their sideline signals. And they made some changes. But Tom, as the one says, You can’t change everything. And this has been one of the one of the handholds, the life vests that Michigan fans have been using about the effectiveness of science stealing. Ohio State’s, you know, they, they change things in 2022. And they still lost and changing some things and changing everything are two vastly different things. And if you’ve got information, like you’ve got, you’ve got all of this signals, you’ve got so much information, you’ve got a lot of time invested. You can’t expect you can’t change things for an entire team. And he can change everything and an entire team in such short notice and still be able to produce and perform on time on schedule. And tip top shape like you need to do against a quality opponents. So I think it was just one more strike down of the excuses about how ineffective or inconsequential this stuff is.

Tom Orr 22:00
Yeah, there is only a limited amount of time during the week these guys are not NFL players with this is the only thing going on in their lives. There are restrictions in terms of practice hours, there’s restrictions in terms of all sorts of stuff. And there, you can only do so much in terms of changing stuff up over the course of a week. Because if you’re changing stuff up every single week. First of all, it chews up a lot of time. Second of all, these people are not robots like you will have you see missed signs in the major leagues like and if you have a team who’s you know, you’re signaling in a play and one guy misses misses the sign, that’s where you have the wide receiver go one direction and the quarterback throws the ball the other direction or, you know, one guy is blocking one play and everyone else is blocking another play and the play gets blown up. That’s that’s the kind of stuff that makes game changing plays happen. So you can there’s only so much you can realistically do. So you know and also it forces if you have a reputation as Michigan has for doing this potentially in legal or illegal ways, whatever whatever way you want to chalk it up to this is not the first time it has been, you know, rumored that this has been going on and Michigan has been you know, Connor stallions a report from OSI Speaking of things breaking in the middle of podcasts report from Richard Johnson of SI cites a long text conversation with Connor stallions about his connections to the Michigan football program. I’m close with the whole staff he wrote particularly he said he quote became close with CP and J harps apparently referring to current linebackers coach Chris Partridge, and running backs and Assistant Special teams coach Jay Harbaugh was the son of head coach Jim Harbaugh. Reading on quote to pre COVID stole opponent signals during the week watching TV copies then flew to the game and stood next to then Michigan offensive coordinator, Josh Gattis and told them what coverage pressure he was getting stallions continued. These texts are part of a lengthy back and forth in January and February 2021, between stallions and a then student at a power five school who was looking to break into the college football industry. And then it says this specific act stallions describe deciphering opponents that goes off TV footage is not against NCAA rules. In the last week though he is now the now suspected Michigan’s suspended Michigan staffer has become a household name across college football following accusations and reports the orchestrated and elaborate scheme to place unnamed associates of his in stadiums of Michigan’s opponents to scout and in some cases film opposing opposing coaches signals both acts very much against the rules. I gotta tell you I have not been able to post anything this week without someone with 13 followers in a block am avatar saying that’s not even against the rules and in the cases where I put in the initial post this is not against the rules that were correct in many many other cases Tony less so.

Tony Gerdeman 24:39
You know, being able to get some of the information from TV copy and and knowing what you’re looking for and and getting that is one thing getting all of the information from being on site again. If if if he was able to do all of this via all 22 and TV copy, why why are all the tickets being pulled Just but yes, time, it’s legal to steal signs. And it reminds me of something that I tweeted on Tuesday where, you know, if you steal a car, and then you get picked up for speeding, and all you you’re gonna see is like, everybody’s speeds. I was only doing 35 and a 65. Like, everybody does this or not even speeding. He just like everybody drives. What’s the deal? What’s the big deal? Everybody drives everybody drives to work every day, but he drives to the grocery store the kiss. But how did you get the car? How did you get the film? How did you get the diagrams? How did you you know, when did where did that come about? And the whole thing of this is just about stealing science. This is just about a hamburger. It’s it is such witchery and hope or eat that it’s I still I would love to know what their thought process like for Michigan fan base and some of the Michigan people covering this. What their reaction was, would be if this is Ohio State stealing signs. And it’s like it goes back to a time to kill the final one of the final scenes where Matthew McConaughey is says, and now I want you to picture this is Ohio State. And Michigan fans are like oh my god. Guilty. Yeah. However you want to spend that time to kill thing.

Tom Orr 26:29
I was gonna say no, I haven’t seen that movie in a long time. So I don’t remember which way it was supposed to be go and either way. The hamburgers thing is so interesting. I heard someone use that recently. You know what you gotta remember this is the NCAA went after Jim Harbaugh against hamburger for hamburgers like Tony, are you familiar with the concept of an unreliable narrator in literature? Yeah. So an unreliable narrator is the guy who’s telling you the story in the book and then it turns out like, Oh, this guy is completely full of crap and a bunch of stuff that I thought was true. Turns out to not be true at all. If someone is telling you the initial case again, Jim Harbaugh was against about hamburgers and nothing but hamburgers. They are an unreliable narrator and you should not listen to them. There is There was COVID violations is what the NCAA is looking at right now like this a lot of this stuff. Remember all the stuff that Herm Edwards got in trouble with with like, illegal visits during COVID and that kind of stuff. That’s what that’s about it not just hamburgers, like hamburgers is like the whimsical shorthand is like highs as we come in. No, Jim horrible. Oh, we probably had some milk with them. There’s actual like stuff there. This is not just some whimsical, lose some extra structure. He was hamburgers, okay, like that. There’s actual substance there. So you should probably bear that in mind when you’re thinking about who you want to listen to, on some of this stuff. But

Tony Gerdeman 27:47
well, just the it’s not just stealing signs. Oh, it’s not just hamburgers. It’s you know, and I saw one of the things with Adam King from channel 10, I believe, posting the video of them having the signals of like the first series of the 2022 game, where you see kind of stallions talking to one of the Michigan coaches Jesse mentor, I believe, and saying, just saying something and then Jesse Minar saying something and then all of the players behind him reacting that it’s going to be a pass. And then I believe on that play Ohio State throws a touchdown pass. It’s it’s in the red zone. And so people are saying, well see, it’s it was the play wasn’t even successful. So how, you know, how beneficial is it to steal signs? And it’s like, I don’t I don’t think that the argument that argument is as strong as you think it is. Because you even had the signs and you couldn’t stop it. So imagine what what you would be unable to do if you didn’t have any of that information. It’s like with tech, mobile, the original tech mobile, you had four plays, you had a 25% chance of stopping that play. Those are pretty darn good odds. If you know whether it’s a passer, Ron, you’ve eliminated one of those things you’ve eliminated. I don’t care about the play action pass anymore, I will just stay back. I’m not going to come up at all. And I can’t remember who was talking about it. But like, I think it may have been James Franklin talking about if it’s third and shorter, fourth and short. And we’re on offense, and we’re doing a play action. And the safety stay in a cover too. And they just stay back there. If they do that once like okay, you know, they guessed right. If they continue to do that, and other third and short short yardage situations, then you know, they have your signals. That’s the kind of advantage that has when you don’t have to worry about the run, or you don’t have to worry about the past and you can just focus on the other. That gives you an incredible advantage. That doesn’t mean you’re going to stop it because everybody has some skill in this game. But to eliminate an entire half of your defensive playbook or the offensive playbook is an incredible advantage.

Tom Orr 29:53
Right and you know, there’s it was James Franklin and that was that was exact example he gave and That’s absolutely right. One thing that I think is worth, I have never really not seen a lot of people talking about this in this context. Remember all the Michigan people who are saying it doesn’t matter that Michigan, Ohio, Ohio State signals are still Ohio State signals, because Ohio State changed your signals. Right? Ohio State changed your signals. So I’m gonna go back and read the I think we talked about this earlier. The Diwan Jones thing from Tom weathers from the AP, he said, the Buckeye suspected Wolverines had their sideline signaled last year and made some changes but couldn’t change everything. They made some changes. So it was it was probably some changes. So therefore, you didn’t know immediately you you had some idea? Maybe you guessed right, maybe the signals were similar, but not exactly the same. So you didn’t have the exact play, you know, it was a past, but you didn’t have the exact play because it was the first drive of the game. And you were just figuring out, hey, maybe they’ve changed your signals a little bit. And then you know, and then you figure out, okay, you can’t change everything. So maybe you’re changing the indicator, maybe you’re changing which guy is the dummy on any individual given play, whatever it is. Once you figure that out, then you have a better you get better again, later in the game. And that stuff is legal. But the stuff before the game is not one thing that I pulled up. And this is not proof positive of anything. It’s just I wanted to pull this up and I decided I’m going to talk about this on the show whether it proves something or not. Here’s another data point. This is the Michigan blog and go blog has for years done UFR, which is upon further review. They go back and look at play by play charting each play which player did well which player did you know you get a plus or minus one of the things they track is called RPS, which is rock paper scissors. So it’s basically I on offensive called the play that, you know, if you’re going to blitz and I’m going to throw a screen or I’m going to run a draw or whatever, and it’s going to you know, this is going to be the perfect call for the defense that you’re in or vice versa, hey, you’re you’re running a fourth and one and but you’re gonna pass it. And I’m gonna keep both my safeties back even though that’s not I have outsmarted you I have one rock paper scissors, right 2021 offense against Ohio State Michigan was a plus three defense against Ohio State Michigan was a plus two. So that was you know, you had you had an advantage but not an enormous advantage. 2022 offense, Michigan was a plus seven, seven more plays that they had a schematic advantage on, on defense plus 12. So they have gone from a plus two to a plus 12 in one year. I’m not saying that this is proof positive of anything, maybe they just got a lot smarter. But that is from M go blog, the Michigan site. That’s their numbers, their numbers, contemporaneously. It’s time I wanted to go back and check Tony, you know, have a little bit more of a control group going back to who didn’t play in 2019 2015. Claim 2020 someone else did it on the offensive side of the ball for them in 2019. So the numbers are not the same. They were a plus six, but it was a different person grading. And he said I don’t know if I’m gonna grade this the same way that Brian does so and then didn’t they didn’t grade defense in 2019. And then they got murdered in 2018. And they were sad and they didn’t do it then. So you go back several years need haven’t done it. So there’s not a great control group there. But 2021 to 2022, Michigan got a lot better at being in exactly the right call against Ohio State for whatever that’s worth.

Tony Gerdeman 33:13
It 2022 is where he was made kind of signage was made a full time staffers that is that the timeline on that one?

Tom Orr 33:20
I believe that is correct. Yes.

Tony Gerdeman 33:24
And so based based on the SI thing that just came out, he was also doing doing some of this in 2021 as well, which I think is something that Pete damals also reported. i But he’s been around the program since like 2015 in some form or fashion. And I did see so much of the show for me airs just just more than more than any other shows recently, like, you know, I saw on Twitter. And it’s a just a terrible way to live. But I did see a Reddit post on Twitter about it, is it is it. Any coincidence that Jim Harbaugh was worst year at Michigan? is the year that no fans were allowed in the stadium of 2020. When you couldn’t, you know, like none of this would have been possible. And I don’t know that the COVID here may or may actually truthfully predate the this whole a legend thing. But this is the problem with having something like this because it creates it invites a ton of speculation, especially when a ton of speculation is bearing out. It’s like, well, this follows and this follows and they they they he bought tickets for a Clemson game and he bought tickets for this game. Never once buying a ticket for a Michigan game in any of these contests, which is another topic we can move on to in a second. But you know, just so many interesting internet sleuths out there, I guess.

Tom Orr 34:54
Well, and with that one with the COVID year I’m kind of willing to just sort of write off The COVID year as the weird one off that it was there was a lot of stuff going on there. You had players missing every week. Penn State had an awful Year that year as well. I’m I don’t look at 2020 and go haha. You know, QED? I think that’s proof positive of anything. But, you know, one thing that is I mean, you talked about the, you know, skewing the outcomes. Tony, do you know how many times Michigan has covered the spread out of their last 23 games?

Tony Gerdeman 35:32
I don’t think they did the nod conference this year. But Toby,

Tom Orr 35:37
according to CBS Sports, or they are 17 five and one against the spread and their last 23 games conference. Sorry. 23 conference games. Sorry. Last 23 conference speakers. Okay, so, you know, Brent Musburger talking about our friends in the desert. And it feels like with the legalization of sports, gambling, our friends in the desert may be having a larger influence on college sports right now. And our friends in the desert don’t tend to screw around with stuff. There was a tweet, and I don’t I don’t want to get into the reading tweets from every one hour. But this one was interesting. And it’s from a Fox Sports Radio National CFB recap show host Aaron Torres. He said little note was told by an aracite airtight source tonight, at least one major sports book has been advised to take Michigan lines off the board for the time being. For those who still don’t get it. This isn’t a quote NCAA rules are dumb, unquote, issue. It’s a quote, integrity of the entire sport, unquote, issue. So that’s one of those things. And I shared that on Tuesday night. And I’ll say here, what I said on Twitter, which is right now, this is just a keep an eye on this kind of thing. But if you do see Michigan lines getting pulled off the board places, that’s going to be an indication that, you know, the people who spent who make a lot of money by people, you know, via people betting on Michigan games are pulling those off. And they are telling you that something real significant is impacting this in a way that is not, you know, in the pure standards of sportsmanship and in the you know, the pure spirit of competition. That’s just something to keep an eye on. I again, I don’t want to oversell this, I just there’s been a lot of stuff floating around that one felt like it was from someone who was maybe credible enough that it would merited sharing, just as a keep an eye on this thing. You know, there are coaches who are ticked about this, Tony, I mean that there have been there’s been plenty of them reporting, citing, you know, big 10 coaches who are really ticked about this and want to see something done. I wonder if our friends in the desert are really ticked about this too. Because you know, Michigan if Michigan is consistently outperforming expectations for reasons that can’t be quantified, you know, that that may cost sportsbooks money to you know, people are betting Michigan is a fairly public team. So people or you know, people are gonna throw a couple bucks on Michigan if Michigan’s covering every week, well, that’s probably those are probably bets that casinos are losing money on to a certain degree. So, you know, and you have to you have to believe that the product in front of you is fair and being contested, you know, within the rules of the game that, you know, there’s not a Tim Donahue situation that there’s not a Dennis Lundy situation, and that you know, this is being this is being contested, you know, in the way that you expect the game to be contested. So once you lose that, that becomes a pretty big issue in realms beyond just big 10 coaches being mad.

Tony Gerdeman 38:41
Yeah, it’s there’s more than just a small group of people angry about this and it doesn’t take much more than a small group of angry people if that group of people is influential and there are a number of influential people angered throughout many different spheres whether it is the gambling people, the big 10 coaches, national coaches, if you will some you know Kirby smart was didn’t seem to be bothered by any of it because I think the the rough quote was Yeah, I don’t remember much of that game basically where I thought that Michigan had our number or knew anything that we were doing that sort of thing and if you remember the game I don’t know what was it like 3211 Something like that in Michigan was never in that one. If they had had plays maybe it would have been 30 to 14 something like that the one last thing that I wanted to maybe just touched on the the race to pin this on Ryan day as some sort of a whistleblower and to the the want to bury the whistleblower rather than find out the truth or juice say hey, is there any truth to this? By some is funny but then also, John, you bacon, a noted Michigan, expert, author, Best Selling Author like Get a not necessarily a Michigan’s version of Jack park, but in that same kind of round but also a little report and as a presence on Twitter, putting a name to the whistleblower being Jim Stapleton who has a board of trustees for Michigan and also on the committee even fractions now. Yes, he’s

Tom Orr 40:22
on the NCAA committee on infractions. served a 10 year term. As alumni student athlete representative on Michigan’s board in control of intercollegiate athletics. He served a 10 year term as a gubernatorial appointed Regent at Eastern Michigan University, assisted in the formation of a group that purchased the Minnesota Vikings franchise in 2006, former Senior Vice President of Business Affairs to the Detroit Tigers, and he’s also an attorney by trade.

Tony Gerdeman 40:49
So it’s not Ryan day?

Tom Orr 40:51
Well, it seems like there’s a new, you know, there’s a new scapegoat out there. And, you know, I mean, don’t, don’t let don’t let the scapegoat, you know, don’t let this you know, today’s version of Emmanuel Goldstein distract you from the fact that this is about whether rules were broken or not like you can, like Michigan boards are in their two minutes hate every day at this point over something new and it feels like the substance of things is not really getting addressed. And it’s just sort of like go get that guy. And that’s I mean, okay. But I said this, I think on the Buckeye small morning episode, we recorded it that Woody yesterday when the response to stuff is just universally stupid and wrong. It’s generally an indication that the reporting on a subject is probably fairly accurate, and there’s not a legitimate way to rebut it. It’s yeah, but it’s Ryan day is the one he’s a crybaby, his teams are soft. Hey, it’s this guy. He’s always hated Jim Harbaugh. And I mean, I don’t know, I don’t know the guy at all. I had not heard the guy’s name until John, you bacon set it on 97. One, on Wednesday morning. I have no maybe he does have it out for Jim Harbaugh. I have no idea. Unless this guy has made this whole thing up of whole cloth, including, you know, Venmo transactions from Connor stallions. And you know that I don’t I don’t think that this guy is actually the issue this, you know, he may be taking the, you know, he may be involved in the decision. But this is not, you know, this is not something that this guy is going to do by himself. And this is not something that this guy, you know, forced Michigan to do if you know the stuff they’re accused of. It feels like a little bit of a distraction.

Tony Gerdeman 42:47
And the last thing for me is the, the latching on to the Venmo stuff. And Michigan side of fans, and even maybe a couple of media members there throwing out the name of an Ohio State, QC person as as a guy and using some Venmo receipt from the Notre Dame game. That the person one of the people were attending, like, you can’t, you can’t advance Scout a game and they were they were attending the Ohio State Notre Dame game, which is vastly different than attending a game well in advance to scouts if you can’t advance Scout, as the game is going on from a seat that is not equipped to do any of that. And throughout all of this reporting Congress dahlias, like none of the games that they’re scouting, were Michigan games, they’re always future Michigan opponents, you can’t the better place to scout this would be from the press box, you know, and it’s it’s not even scouting looks like the better place to steal the signals would be from the press box. This is not advanced scouting. This is going to a game this is attending a game that you want to see because your guys are playing in it. And it’s an it’s a venue that is it’s college football history. This isn’t the time you’d have to be to advance scout in real time, you’d have to be able to move so much faster to have to be like you know, you’re one of these superheroes that can stop time. And it’s just a ridiculous notion that you’re thinking that this is equivocal to anything that has been done allegedly from the kind of stallion side,

Tom Orr 44:30
right? That’s a real just very obvious distraction to what’s actually going on here because the date on the this was to Ohio State staffers Venmo owing money. We had the public Venmo conversation yesterday. We don’t need to repeat that but Venmo owing money on September 21 2023 at 9:06pm So it’d be the Thursday evening before the Ohio State Notre Dame game. The emoji on the on the thing was a shamrock that leads me to believe it might be noted unrelated Tony, the issue with Connor stallions games is it was advanced scouting. This is attending a game that Ohio State is playing in. You’re allowed to attend games you’re playing in? Because otherwise, every game would be a forfeit. Does that make sense? I feel like that makes sense. I feel like having the team, staff members, families, what have you there is probably a relevant portion of playing the game as a real relevant piece of playing the game. So yeah, this is not at all the same thing. But yeah, there was a Michigan media member who was pushing that and it’s like my brother in Christ, use your brain for three seconds and think it through. Look at the date that the Ohio State Notre Dame game was played and look at the date of this transaction. This is an advanced scouting two weeks in advance. This is someone buying a ticket that week of the game so that he and or his family could go attend. I had the tweet from that play that staffer after the game that showed video from the stands, and said, You know what, hey, look, this is where he was sitting. Someone told me that that video he had taken from someone else. And so it was not necessarily his seats. I took that down. But, you know, regardless, this is someone who was buying a ticket to the game that Ohio State was playing in which you’re allowed to do counter stallions being at the Michigan games. He’s not stealing the opposing team signs in advance illegally during the game where they’re playing that team, someone else is out there doing that remotely at another school. That’s the allegation. That’s the issue. I keep seeing people saying you will you’re allowed to steal signs, everyone’s still signs. Yes. You’re allowed to steal signs during the game, where you’re playing the team, you’re not allowed to do it in advance. That’s the issue. I genuinely don’t know, Tony, do people are people seriously not understanding the distinction here? Or is this just a well, I’ve reached my conclusion on this. And so therefore, you know, I have to just say this because you know, other otherwise, I might have to acknowledge like, hey, there might be something going on here.

Tony Gerdeman 47:09
Yet some, the the intellectual dishonesty or just not being truthful with yourself in terms of what this looks like. And again, what it looks like not necessarily what it is yet, although it’s getting worse, looking like it’s getting worse and worse. And so, I think a lot of people or Michigan fans are like, but this is just it’s all circumstantial. None of this is tying together to Michigan. But even even then, if it does, then the response is gonna be like, why is this even legal? The NCAA, and this is already happening. The NCAA tried to get rid of this rule a couple of years ago, they said it was more trouble than it’s worth to monitor and they didn’t see it as being all that beneficial. And so people, the people on the Michigan side have latched on to that, like, see the NCAA doesn’t even think it’s a real thing. Except it’s still a rule. It’s still, they did not get rid of that. And clearly, if you want to be if you want to look at the circumstantial evidence, it sure helps, or else, they wouldn’t be doing it, you wouldn’t be sending people out, you wouldn’t be trying to get as much information as you can. So it certainly looks like it’s going to, it’s helping and so I think it once this is all if this is everything is pinned back on Jim Harbaugh, then the reaction will be why is this even a rule? Why why is there anything wrong with this and the rules today’s society today, you know, that whole thing, it’s like, it shouldn’t even be against the rules, because we’re working harder, you know, that sort of thing. Or we’re being punished for our effort, because he is enthusiasm unmatched, unknown to mankind. You know, what’s wrong with that, you know, they’re just trying to keep us down and they’re out to get us and all of the conspiratorial things that we see way too often today is just going to be handed down to the Michigan football fandom. And it’s a difficult situation for Ward Manuel to be in if he wants to be like, this is completely unacceptable for what this program has purported itself to be for so long. And you’ve just seen that NATO become almost Lord of the Flies overnight in terms of what is okay and what is it what is just hamburgers and what is just stealing signs.

Tom Orr 49:18
Yeah, it feels like there’s a lot of rationalization and you start you start getting into doing doing stuff that you wouldn’t necessarily have thought you were willing to do. Like and I feel like I’ve said this 100,000 times like let’s let this whole thing play out. Let’s see what the NCAA comes up with evidence wise someone messaged me this morning DM me this morning was asking, you know, has the NCAA gotten the video yet from that you know, that they were supposed to be getting? I have no idea. We will have to wait and find out we’ll see. We’ll see what when they get the video we’ll see what is on that video what they find on that video. We’ll find it all eventually just this is just we at this point. We are just sort of collecting information and you know you’re starting to you’re starting to have doubts you can Next can connect a little bit and it’s making a little bit more sense and you’re getting some consistent themes and data supporting certain conclusions. Can I let it continue to play out? I do. Tony before I let you go a little more from that si story from Richard Johnson I mentioned earlier I’m just gonna read his tweet promoting it. A part of it was that Connor science was apparently quote also working on a 600 page manifesto. To run the program in the future using data on about 500 Navy players to e4 inform a recruiting theory. And then Matt Brown of the extra points newsletter in Ohio State grad with the quote to to the day it says weird a Michigan man writing a huge manifesto has never gone poorly before Tony I think we’re done

Tony Gerdeman 50:44
it’s so annoying that I did not know that that was coming because I was waiting to make that same joke so I will edit this three to one time it’s crazy another Michigan man with a giant manifesto. What could possibly go wrong? And seen

Tom Orr 51:02
do we do we have our name? Is he the the unit filmer something like that? Are we Oh my The unit signer manifesto

Tony Gerdeman 51:17
the unit cutter.

Tom Orr 51:19
The unit Connors not bad. How? How is How was his last and stallions and that’s not the part of his name we use for this. I don’t know. Unit unit stallions. Yeah, no. Look, Tony. Good news. I think we’re probably gonna end up doing another show on this at some point relatively soon, and we can continue to workshop. He’s tremendous, tremendous ideas.

Tony Gerdeman 51:37
So much workshopping that will go on so I want to thank you all for tuning in. Please check us out at Buckeye where all kinds of stuff is happening right now. If you’re not yet a member now is a fantastic time to join. also continue to find us at huddle and any podcast platform that you would aim to use we are there as well. So thank you all for tuning in. And we will talk to you guys later.

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